Getting Published

Getting Published

         Getting published is on most people's mind here at writing.com. How do we go about it? What should we do first? This article should hopefully answer some of your questions.

         I had a survey not too long ago to find out what the readers of the "People's Choice Newsletter"  wanted.
Brians Next Novel Almost Done! suggested interviews with published authors here on writing.com.
I thought that was a good idea and decided to use a survey to find out information from these great published writers here on writing.com.

I also did a little research on the subject and this is what I came up with.

First I want to thank all of the published writers who shared their knowledge. I greatly appreciate it and I am sure many others here on this site will appreciate it also.

All "" and green notes are my comments
All blue notes are published writers answers

The process of publishing involves the selection of a manuscript, editing, designing of the book's final appearance, manufacture of the book, distribution to booksellers, and purchase by readers.

Books are usually moved from publisher to bookseller through wholesale distributors.

Q&A from published writers on writing.com

Are you self-published or traditionally published?

The books that I'm involved with are published by a small publishing house owned by my husband. Therefore the answer is actually neither, or both.
Vivian

traditionally published
Shaara

Both actually.

I wrote a book after my parents died to share their tragic story of how they had absolutely NO say in their care after tragedy struck. I self-published it because I wanted to get it into the market quickly and I do public speaking on the issue of elder care and the importance of planning ahead!

As for the traditional -- I've had a few feature articles published along with numerous smaller ones.
JudyB

traditionally published
kelly1202

I am not self-pushished so I guess I am traditionally published.
jeanimoo

E-published.
opto

I am only published online, and only articles so far, but am working on many other items including short stories for children and poertry anthologies
cerianwen

Traditionally
Anonymous



How long have you been writing?

The first example of my writing is a poem when I was in third grade, fifty-four years ago.
Vivian

twenty years +
Actually forever, but does childhood count?
Shaara

For roughly 20 years. Unfortunately, there was a hefty gap with no writing at all while I worked two jobs, and later raised my son and numerous foster children.
I am back at it again in full swing, however and hope to secure a number of new bylines this year
JudyB

off and on my whole life
kelly1202

Ever since I can remember
jeanimoo

I've been writing since I was a kid. I've been published through high school up to today. There are articles, short stories, poetry, novels. You name it.
opto

Ever since I can remember, I've always dreamt up wonderful stories of other lands, of beuatiful landscapes and peoples. Poetry is my main writing genre along with childrens books.
cerianwen

30 years
Anonymous


How did your relationship with your publisher start?

We started dating. (husband)
Vivian

No relationship. I was only published once, in a magazine (oh, and once in one of those books where everyone's horrid poem was published. Yes, I was fooled ONCE.)
Shaara

In all my experiences, I simply crafted a well written query letter on a subject that I was passionate about and got a green light to submit an article.
With "fillers" I just research the various publisher's guidelines and submit short filler articles.
JudyB

was recommended from a another author
kelly1202

Through a friend
jeanimoo

Well, on the novel side of things, I met my first publisher through a yahoo group for another author. I was discussing the woes of writing Night Fall, and Noemi from Ocean's Mist Press emailed me and asked to see what I had. I only had two or three chapters at the time. She sent me a contract that very day. LOL!! We have a great relationship and she'll be getting more of my sci/fi books as soon as I can actually sit down and write!

I met my publisher, Rene from Silk's Vault, through Marlene making a ComeBack!! . I sent in The Sandman and they took it within days. I've since written and published Cowboy Christmas through them and plan on more.

The latest book that I sold is through Venus Press. I went through the traditional channels with Alice Unchained. I had to do some fut-sing around with the story line a bit, but they have it and are editing it as we speak.
opto

I dont currently have a publisher as I am only published online with articles.
I am currently searching for a publisher for my works
cerianwen

She was owner of a writing group
Anonymous


How did you get published?

First of all Holly Jahangiri provided encouragement and technical support. Since between us we had over fifty years of editing experience, we knew we could provide any and all editing needed. We used a print-on-demand company to do the printing.

We produced a high-quality, professional book both times.

By the way, print-on-demand is completely different than vanity publishing or any kind of publishing. All such companies do is print however many copies of a manuscript customers buy.
Vivian

I sent my poem to a magazine and received a free magazine in exchange for my story.
Shaara

Mainly by studying the magazines I want to write for and submitting a query that gets noticed. Those query letters are so important!
JudyB

I sent in a query letter and my story for possible submission and it was excepted
kelly1202

Sent in my writings
jeanimoo

I submitted my articles to www.goarticles.com and www.ezinearticles.com and waitied for them to be accepted.

I am hoping to start editing my work and searching for a publisher as soon as possible for my other work.
cerianwen

I submitted, and submitted, and submitted...
Anonymous

Preparing a book proposal

Cover letter
Title page
Concept statement
Book overview
The authors
The market (audience)
The competition
Production details
Promotion
Book table of contents
Chapter summaries
Sample chapters
Appendix
Reference


How long did it take you to find a publisher?

Publishers for poetry or short story collections are few and far between, a true traditional publisher was difficult to find. That's when my husband established 4RV Publishing. However, all editing of the material was professional and thorough. The finished books will hold their own with any book on the market as far as quality.

I am still searching for a completely traditional publisher for my three finished novels, one of which was nearly bought by a completely traditional publisher.
Vivian

That particular time it took about six months.
Shaara

Between 1 and 2 months -- the time it took to hear back on my query letters.
JudyB

A long time as I did not know how to go about till I started asking questions and learning things, still have some things to learn.
jeanimoo

Noemi from OMP and Rene from Silk found me. After that, I did a lot of research. Erotica is a good start for me, but it's only a start. I was voted 13th best author of 2005 from The Preditors and Editors poll after being published for less than two months.

I go to the book store and look at who my competitors are publishing with. Then I go to the internet and research them there. I use Writer's Digest as a good research tool and The Writer's Market. I look for forums that discuss the different publishers. I try to meet as many authors as I can. I try to find anything out about the publishers that I'm going to submit to as I possibly can.
opto

29 years
Anonymous


How do you figure out who to query?

I subscribe to Writers' Market online. I call any publisher I am considering and ask for the name of the person who edits the genre I want to submit.

Even if the information is given in Writers' Market, editors sometimes leave or are replaced. I prefer to use the correct name.
Vivian

I just sent out pieces to every magazine I thought might be interested in something.
Shaara

By studying the individual markets! After I get an idea for an article, I research which publications would likely be interested in it.

Then I study the guidelines they have entered -- Writer's Market and Woodenhorse Publications both have excellent databases of thousands of periodicals.

When I've decided upon who I want to approach, I then study several issues of their magazine to be knowledgable of their style and slant.
JudyB

Submission pages. The Writer's Market will tell you who to query, but editors move around a lot. Look at the submission page and if you're still a bit baffled, call them. Tell the receptionist that you're a prospective author and you would like to have a name to send your manuscript to. She gets quite a few of those phone calls, trust me, so she'll know.
opto

You get the editor in chief
Anonymous


Is querying by email getting more acceptable?

Considering that three years ago no publisher or agent would accept email queries and that now a small percentage are, yes, email queries are more acceptable.
Vivian

To an extent. Some of the smaller publications in particular are quite accepting of them. It's handy and gets you an answer much quicker than using snail mail.

For major publications, however, I am still in favor of the written mailed query. When I have a feature article I am pitching, I prefer to have the editors see my overview of it on quality letterhead rather than a block of space on an email.
JudyB

yes
kelly1202

Absolutely. It's quick. It's fast and for the most part, it's reliable.
opto

It seems to be. I am hoping that this will be even more acceptable soon as this makes it much easier and the process quicker and of course less paper to waste.
cerianwen

yes
Anonymous


Any tips on query letter writing?

Do not brag on one's self nor malign either. Include only the personal information that would apply to the story, novel, article, etc. being submitted. For example, my being a grandmother isn't important unless I want to submit a children's story; then that information might be usable.
Be professional. A query or cover letter is not a friendly chat.
Always use standard English, spelling, and grammar.
Vivian

Grab their attention from the very first sentence of the letter!

There is plenty of space in the body of the letter to say who you are, and why you want to write this particular article for them.

Editors are just so busy they tend to zero in on things that catch their eye -- which is why that first sentence/paragraph is so vitally important.

The other thing I think is important (in the body of the letter) is to tell them why YOU want to write this article. Share only the positive reasons why you should write it and convey to the editor your CONFIDENCE in being able to provide an informative/interesting/helpful article.

Also advise them if you will be able to provide pictures and if you plan on using Sidebars, graphs or other extras in your article presentation.

In the closing paragraph, tell the editor when you could have the finished article sent out to them.
JudyB

Don't get too personal. You want to show the editor or "pile reader" that you're top-notch. Your voice in your query letter should be easily understood and enjoyable to read. But leave out the mushy, personal stuff out.

I wrote a query letter to Dorchester Love Spell and basically said that The Sandman was my personal journey between the harsh reality of being a single mother and finding my dreams. It was really personal and very mushy. I got a rejection letter within a week.

I rewrote it and gave a brief synopsis of the book itself, put in my credentials and I was vying for a "spot" for two years.
opto

Be professional in your presentation and language use.
Anonymous

Query letter writing

Treat it as a formal letter.
Even if it is an email, you can write a formal email with a heading and everything.

The top of the letter should contain an address and name of the editor who will be reading your query.

Get the editor or whomever you are querying's attention in the first line. Otherwise they may not read much further.

Tell the editor how your idea fits the needs of his or her readership.

Give a brief description of your qualifications.

Make sure and thank the editor for their time in the end.

Include a SASE with at least two forms of contact information.

You can look online for sample query letters if you need.



Where is the best place to look for a publisher?

I use Writers' Market, but writing conferences are good sources to meet publisher representatives. In fact a couple of other W.Com members and I are attending a conference the first of May where we will have opportunities to meet editors from publishing houses and magazines.
Vivian

The usual books, Writer's Guide or Writer's Market
Shaara

For most of us who live far from our targeted publications, we must search the databases available online and the various writing magazines that are on the newstands.
JudyB

Google and Barnes and Noble.
opto

There are plenty of websites online advertising publishing services, but be wary there are some sharks out there. Find someone who has been published and who writes in the same or similar genre. They may know of good sources for you to contact.
cerianwen

I think the best place to look for your publisher is in the front cover of books you as a writer enjoy reading.
Anonymous


Do you have an agent?
How do you get an agent?

I'm still looking for an agent. The writing conference I will attend will also have agents present, and appointments can be made to meet with one or more.

Finding an agent (and the same is true of finding a publisher) is a vicious circle: Most agents aren't interested in authors unless they have been published, just as most publishers aren't interested in authors unless they have agents.
Vivian

Yes. I sent out my query, got a nibble, and sent the book. What a tragedy! Never sign a five year contract!!! One year is better.
Shaara

No
kelly1202

No I do not
jeanimoo

Nope. Not yet. However, that will change soon.

I would recommend The Writer's Market for your initial search. Then when you've found one that you think might work, look at their webpage and see if that helps. You query them just like you would a publisher.
opto

I dont have an agent at the moment.
cerianwen

No
Anonymous

What do agents look for in a writer?

Writing ability (clarity and directness)

Dedication and determination (the ability to commit to a project and the determination to do whatever it takes to see it through)

The ability to look past the topic's surface to find the real pearls in the subject matter, and then follow its logical conclusion.

Grasp of good narrative structure

Market sense (the ability to determine if there really is a market for an idea, how large the market is, and what it will take to reach it)

Originality and creativity

Willingness to promote

Professional letterhead (good paper)


Do you recommend an agent?

Nope!!!!!!!!!
Shaara

If you're going traditional, yes I do. There are a lot of things that go in a contract that you probably will not understand. AND you'll have a harder time negotiating your advance and royalties. You might sign away rights that you should have kept.

Plus, the agent will keep your ms from the sludge pile of ms's that the publishers get. When a new author queries without the assistance of an agent, your hard work gets thrown into a room where there's this pile of other ms's. The "pile reader" will take a few home each night and read through them to see if there are any good reads, but it's highly unlikely that you'll actually get caught that way.

The other thing that you should know is that there are "pile readers" whose job is to reject all the ms's he/she reads. Ouch!!
opto

No
Anonymous

Some publishers prefer to work with agents


What is your editing process to make sure your book is ready for publication?

1. By the time I allow anyone else to proof my writing, I have usually edited and revised it five or more times, not counting the revising I do as I write.

2. I have six people, who not only have good grammar and spelling skills, but who are excellent editors in other areas, who then proof and edit for me. Three to four do so more than one time. The length of the material determines how many different people "edit."

3. After each "editor" gives me his or her suggestions, I apply those which are useable or adapt ideas and revise my manuscript. By the time this process is completed, the item has been edited and revised at least five more times.

4. I allow the writing to sit and cool for a period of time before reading and editing, revising as needed, again.

5. Finally, I consider submitting the finished product. I always do a final proofreading and make any necessary changes before printing a copy to submit.
Vivian

Getting friends to read it. Oh, and my agent does do a good job editting.
Shaara

With my book, the entire copy was on disk so the publisher, and myself, along with a few "readers" who volunteered to help, read through the copy to pick up on errors in wording, typing, etc.

The cover of the book is vitally important as well and while I created mine by myself, there are people who design book covers which can be invaluable if you're not self-publishing and working on a limited budget.
JudyB

Well, at first, I would write a chapter, read it, edit it and then move on. However, now, I just write it. My grammar is pretty good. I then read it over one last time for story structure, but after that, it's off to the publisher.
opto

read read and read again. Ask your mates to read for you and or members of your family, sometimes little mistakes can be overlooked when you read yourself.
cerianwen

A copy editor corrects grammar and spelling and also query authors on possible errors of fact or meaning. They often do careful research as they work, consulting reference sources to be sure the author's facts are correct.


How many times were you rejected before you were finally published the first time?

I was published the first time in a magazine and wasn't rejected at all. In fact the first poetry, short stories, and articles I submitted were published in various magazines.

An extremely large file in a drawer in my office holds rejection letters for various items over the years. There are approximately sixty "form" rejections and maybe five with any type of message letting me know why.
Vivian

For me, luckily just a few times. But I am talking about magazine articles here. By targeting my queries to those most interested in my idea, I've been fortunate to not meet with too much rejection.
JudyB

Hmm . . . about 20-30 times, by publishers and agents both. The best one though was Dorchester's reply to The Sandman. This last time, it took over two years and then I got a rejection letter that stated that my voice wasn't fresh enough. LOL!! You have to understand that when you're competing up there, you're competing with some of the best writers out there.
opto

have had 2 short childrens books rejected, but they were a long time ago, it has tasken me a long time to be ready to sent any more queries
cerianwen

What is the best advice you have for writers looking to get published?

The advice I can give is to keep trying if a person really wants to be published. If one method doesn't work, find others.

However, don't have just anything printed so that you can say you're published. Many "vanity" publishers exist that will take your money and print a "book," but unless the work has been professionally and thoroughly edited, the book isn't worth the paper used for the printing.
Vivian

Do your best, send, pray, and stop thinking about it while you write, write, and write.
Shaara

1 - Know what you are writing about.
2 - Be interested in what you are writing about.
3 - Write at the level of most readers for your targeted book/article. When wishing to reach the average population, it is suggested to write at a 10th grade reading level. (I know this may sound low, but it really does make sense) And large, fancy words and long complicated sentences truly are NOT what makes a great article!
4 - Stay focused on what you're writing about.
5 - DON'T GIVE UP!!! One rejection doesn't mean your article idea is bad. Turn right around and send your query to another until you find a home for your work.
JudyB

be patient and don't give up!
jeanimoo

Research, grow really thick skin and find people who understand and can emotionally support you. Oh, and find a rich man who will support you, your bills and your kids and who allow you to write full-time. That will help!!
opto

Check your market. Look around and ask lots of questions to others who have already been published. W.com is an exclellent source of willing people to be questioned and ready to help.
cerianwen

Send your work to publishers of writers you have read and enjoy. Surround yourself with writing professionals. Read everything you get your hands on. Write what you know, not what you have no clue about.
Anonymous

My advice is if you are serious about getting published, do a lot of research about different companys you are interested in working with.


How much marketing assistance do/did you recieve from your company?

Whether a person "self-publishes" or goes through a traditional publisher, he better be prepared to promote his own book. Unless the author is a celebrity, publishers don't do much promoting. They may send out some news releases, set up appointments through their contacts, but much of the actual promotion is left up to the author.
Vivian

Zip
Shaara

Because I self-published my book, very little.
JudyB

I recieved quite a bit from Silk. OMP is just starting. The marketing assistance will only grow. Venus Press is helping out QUITE a bit. I've even got an add in a big-time fantasy magazine!
opto

I dont work for a company at present.
cerianwen

What do you look for in a contract?

I can't remember the details the one publisher and I worked out in a contract before I was asked to change the ending of my book completely, at which time I terminated the deal. There are many articles in the Writer or in Writers' Digest covering this topic.
Vivian

Never a five-year!
Shaara

I look at everything
jeanimoo

What rights are they buying? Know your rights and know which ones you're willing to sell. If you're selling to an E-publisher, you might not want to sell your audio or hard-publishing rights. And I love that one--We have the right to buy rights to medias that have not been created yet. *big eyeroll* Most times, that's okay. But sometimes . . . well, use your best judgement. If you've got a trad publisher who doesn't sell e-copies, don't sell your e-rights.

Are they buying rights to your characters. OMP has rights to the characters in Night Fall. So they get every book that has that plot series and/or characters.

Look for the duration and the "if we fold" clause.

Don't sell them rights to your pen name.

The thing to know is that when a publisher gives you the contract, they've signed it already. Once you get it, you cross out what you don't like and put in what you do. Then sign it and send back a copy. They don't like that, but it protects your butt. That advice was given to me by an author who now makes the big-time money. Joan Johnston.
opto

Any publishers that ask for an upfront fee or as readers fee I have been told to be very wary of.
cerianwen

Honesty and drive.
Anonymous

Are there publishers you would recommend staying clear of?

Any and all of the vanity presses. If a company calls itself a publisher yet does not edit to meet high literary standards, run.
Vivian

If you go e-book, look at their duration. E-book publishers spring up quickly and they fold just as fast.

POD's are not recommended in my book. You'll have a really hard time getting into bookstores through them.

But trads? No. There aren't many that I wouldn't recommend, but do your research first! And for heaven's sake, don't PAY them to publish your book. You're worth more than that!
opto

poetry.com
Anonymous

Vanity publishers
excerpts from http://www.vanitypublishing.info/

"Many unwary authors are encouraged by vanity publisher's initial promotional material which usually praises the work submitted - whatever its quality. Such publishers often misleadingly refer to themselves as 'partnership', 'self-' 'joint venture', or subsidy publishers. But however they may refer to themselves and however much they may deny that they are - if they charge you to publish your book - they are a vanity publisher.

"My advice is that you do not answer advertisements in newspapers or magazines which offer to publish books. Mainstream publishers NEVER advertise for authors - they have no need to do so."


How long does the publishing process usually take?

Through a traditional publisher, the process can take as long as three or four years.
Vivian

If you're e-book, it takes anywhere from a couple of weeks to several months. POD, like Publish American, can take up to a year or more. Traditional publishing, you'll probably get a 24month publishing release date.
opto

Depends on the publisher.
Anonymous



Do you write on a schedule or when inspiration hits you?

I work on my writing every day, but not always at the computer. I play everything through my mind until it's real before I start typing.
Vivian

All the above. Every moment I'm not doing something else. I read in between those times.
Shaara

In the past I have always written when the inspiration hits me, but I am currently moving beyond that. Now I insist on a personal schedule that include 3 hours per day for my writing -- which can include actual writing, research, contacting editors, etc.
JudyB

I write all the time!
jeanimoo

I write when my schedule clears. LOL!! I have my stories going through my head constantly so that when I do get a spare second or two, I can sit down and write instantly instead of having to "get back into it".

However, when I have the chance--and I will soon--I like to write on schedule. I'm constantly inspired.
opto

When inspiration hits... it is the only way I can write... I cannot force my writitng it doesn't come out very well at all.
cerianwen

both
Anonymous


How do you overcome writer's block?

I've never really had writer's block. I may struggle with the right words, but when I can't find them, I read. I walk away from the struggle and, often, the problem works itself out in my head.
Vivian

If a book doesn't flow, I write a poem. If a poem doesn't flow, I write an essay. If an essay doesn't flow, I write a short story. If an short story doesn't flow, I must be yawning, and I go to bed.

I also recommend the Writer's Cramp!
Shaara

Read newspapers (now extra easy because online you can access the daily news of any major city in the United States).

If I am stuck in the middle of a current writing project, I put it down and just get away from it for a few hours. By then I can think clearly again and new ideas and ways of sharing them will emerge.
JudyB

I write every day, I write something every day!!!
jeanimoo

Writer's block? What's that? I've had mental fatigue, which I believe is one of the contributing factors of writer's block. I take a "vacation" for ONE week. I read and review the next. I jot down ideas in week THREE and then I'm back off to the races.
opto

I take myself to a favourite spot, usually the ocean. I can take myself there without physically going there. Usually something will come to me, but I need peace and serenity.
cerianwen

I continue writing, reading, writing, reading
Anonymous


How much should we expect to get paid for different items such as: poetry, anthologies, short stories, articles, novels ect?

The pay ranges from nothing to hundreds of dollars. The royalty for each book I'm involved with is $2.00 to $4.00, depending on where the book is sold. So far the royalties haven't been enough to repay the expenses.

However, if the books keep selling as they are, and if all the vested co-authors would publicize the book in the areas where they live, in a few months we may have enough royalties that we all might have a few dollars. Let's see, twenty-five dollars divided by eight . . .
Vivian

When starting out, for short items like articles, poetry, and such, the important thing is getting it sold -- thus giving you a "credit" when you query other markets.

I always prefer to receive the most I can for my writing, but for things that don't really take you that long to write, anything from a token payment of $25 to $100 or more can add up really well if you write (and sell) consistently.
JudyB

Poetry? Don't expect anything. When you get your $50 check after 5 years, you'll be happy.

Anthologies, remember that the advance--if you get one--will be split up by however many authors you have as will the royalties. Anthologies are mainly to help new authors get a name.

Shorts? You can expect about $25-$50 per story depending on where you publish it. The only real market for them are through magazines and those are hard to find.

Articles are the same way, only you'll get paid anywhere from $10-$50 per article.

Novels? Well, through e-books, you don't get an advance, but you get anywhere from 35%-50% royalties. And if you sell well, you can make thousands really quickly.

PODs? Keep your day job. And your night job, too. Unless you market your little butt off, you won't get rich quick on POD.

Trad is your hope, but starting out, you're going to need to keep your day job for about 3-10 years. We're getting advances that are smaller than what author were getting paid a hundred years ago. Isn't that sad? This is where I state again, DON'T pay the publisher to publish your book! You're worth more than that! And when a new author comes on board with a big-boy publisher and only gets paid $100 for the advance, he'll have you to thank for it.

You should see anywhere from $1000 to $2000 advance if you're a new author with 5%-15% percent royalties. Don't think that you'll ever see your royalties because until they get big, the publisher will find many ways to keep those. "We had to buy back books that didn't sell." Right. On your statement, if they sent out for a second printing and stated that they had to buy back on the first, you know you're being played. This is one of those many instances where an agent will save your bacon!!
opto

Depends on the publisher and the writer. everything is decided by contract.
Anonymous


What have you learned along the way?

I've learned that writing something is the easy part of being published, but that is not to say that writing well is easy, only that writing is just the beginning of a long process.
Vivian

Never give up?
Shaara

In magazine articles, "less is better" -- in other words, keep the writing tight and to the point.
Also, that variety is not only the spice of life, it is the spice of the writer! This is why fillers, short quizzes, and such work very well when part of an article.
JudyB

It seems to be a waiting game that is for sure. And that it all takes times.
jeanimoo

A LOT!! Do your research. Take time for yourself. Write on a schedule if you can. Sleep. Eat. Spend time with those you love. And find a comprimise in your life that support your writing addiction.
opto

Stick to your guns... Youi write because you live for the writing, be truthful to yourself and honest. Get as much feedback as possible and edit carefully.
cerianwen

Read alot. Write alot. Journal. Use your journaling and your experience as your guide to writing.
Anonymous

Some good sites:
http://www.right-writing.com/checklist.html
http://www.copyright.gov/
http://www.agentsearch.com/agent_ver.html
http://vanitypublishing.info/

Good Writing.com links:
"IMPROVE YOUR WRITING" 
"Invalid Item" 
"Don't Press That Key" 
"Invalid Item" 
"Published Authors Questionnaire" 
"Invalid Item" 
"The Three Kinds of Rejection Letters" 
"Invalid Item" 
"Invalid Item" 
"Invalid Item" 
"How to Write a Query Letter" 
"Invalid Item" 


Library of Congress serves as the official copyright agency of the U.S

References-
Microsoft Encarta Reference Library 2002
http://vanitypublishing.info/
and a few other online sites that I regret not writing down. Most of which had the same information.

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